Curse

Bryant Again · Mar 28, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

And how come it is so much easier to go outside of ToA and kill a Bog Skale than to go to DoA and kill a Margonite?

Neither of them are primaries, yet it is so much easier to kill a Bog Skale. Of course it matters.

What? Primary of what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Sorry but giving people more options and utility far outweighs your need to feel special.

And qouted for truth.

Exoudeous · Mar 28, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

"While he isnt quite a "must have" (nothing in the game truly is) he is part of the gameplay the way the other heroes and henchies are." So because an Elite Skill is part of game play but I can't get to it unless I get to RoT they should have to put it on Istan? Any skill that I can't get until a later part of the game for that matter. While an Elite Skill may not be the best comparison, the view stays the same, anything that requires work and money should be handed to you if it is part of game play? No work required?

Skills significantly enhance game play, Razah may also. Razah or ZB? I would take ZB, thank you (yeah that is my opinion, others may take Razah. If you would take Razah over ZB, think of a skill that would enhance your game play).

But capturing an elite skill doesnt force you to to do a bunch of hhihg level quests that take hours each to complete just so you can do another quest to unlock them.

Your examples make no sense. Especially cause people dont complain about those other things. The only problem here is you wont stop complaining cause you can't be "leet" anymore.

Anet changes this because they saw it was something that should be changed. Its also why they havent made FoW armor easier to get even though people complaind. Becasue tehy only adjust the reasonable complaints

Razah was anounced before the game came out, he was called a variable hero. lots of people got excited caus they wanted to make him a rit, since there was no other rit heros. Then he finally came out and people realzied they had to go through some very tough quests, ones that almost impossible to do with a pug, and can;t be done alone since there are no henchmen. ( I bet now you are going to say something about FoW and UW being the same way, but you dont have to use any rare items from them to unlock anything).

Now, if there was rit hero available in the game besides razah, I would see your point. but right now you are just complaining for selfish reasons, and not objectivly.

Akshara · Mar 28, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

You entirely missed my point, I meant the Razah quest isn't a primary

No, I got your point. You don't feel that having Razah is necessary.

Quote:

I can't give any non-Rit hero my favorite rit builds as they rely on spawning power skills.

Those who don't get why a Ritualist hero is important clearly didn't spend much time playing one as a character. Olias is not a Ritualist alternative.

Quote:

It doesn’t really matter who doesn’t like this… it’s going to happen, and I’m going to get Razah. Then, to top it off, I’m going to find out who doesn’t like it, find their favorite restaurants and buy Razah an expensive dinner there. When you walk in Razah and I will wave once, then ignore you, and after we eat and have a bottle of wine we’ll skip out the door arm in arm giggling while you think about the way things used to be, when Razah was all yours.

Best post of the thread.

darkknightkain · Mar 29, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

I think the first group who don't like the change is because "Razah" is one of their game accomplishments. Changing "Finding a Purpose" is de-valuing their accomplishments whichever way to look at it.

On the other hand, what the second group really after is just a generic "ritualist hero" who is acquirable in a comparable effort/difficulty as other heros like Morgahn and co. (The game does not provide any other ritualist hero

).

I propose an alternative...

1. Keep "Razah" and the existing "Finding a Purpose" to get this "Razah" the same. Finish this quest get you the real "Razah" directly.

2. Have a place holder hero called "Lesser Razah" or dub him "Lazah", "Lezah" or something everyone know is a fake.
3. Add a "Get Lesser Razah" quest involves a comparable storyline unlocked place (say Nightfallen Garden).
4. To UPGRADE this fake called "Lesser Razah" into the real "Razah", must do the original "Finding a Purpose" quest.

In short, those who aleady got "Razah" via the original way, continue to keep their "Razah" as symbol for their accomplishment.
Those who simply want a "ritualist hero" to beat missions together with can use this generic ritualist hero called "Lesser Razah". It is a "ritualist hero" and that's all they care.
But if one day they want to show off, they'll have to beat "Finding a Purpose" in order to unlock the real "Razah" like whoever did it the original way.

Hopefully it can satistify both groups?

PS. Nightfallen Garden is just an example. It is after Morgahn and at around 2/3 of the game so there are still a few missions left to allow this "Lesser Razah" to be deployed.

Any chance my proposed alternative may be feasible?

It is meant to simply provide a placeholder ritualist hero that is not Razah, but at a more-attainable way so that everyone can have. (Think of it like if Razah is the FOW armour at one end, then this placeholder hero is meant to be the collector/Dorks armour at the other end) In addition, also make this placeholder hero available much earlier in the game than endgame so can have missions to do with.

And, while at the same time, this alternative is not changing anything related to Razah that people are getting upset about.

Can it work for everyone? Is it feasible?

If this upgrade process from a placeholder ritualist to Razah can be pulled off, then maybe just maybe one day we can see quests for giving up "Razah Rt" to get "Razah W", "Razah Mo", or ... etc.(...though that maybe a bit too much wishful thinking

)

Hell Raiser · Mar 29, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Yes. There will always be a complainer. Take your posts for instance. So what's your point?

My point is that it wouldn't have been any different had there been another Ritualist hero. What is your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And just because others will get Razah more easily doesnt change how your team works. The only thing it changes is how your precious Razah is no longer elite to you.

Sorry but giving people more options and utility far outweighs your need to feel special.

My need to feel special? I said before that I don't care that Anet is making Razah more accessible. I said I don't like the fact that people were complaining about it being too hard, instead of being in game farming the gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What? Primary of what?

The Razah quest and Zenmai quest are not primary quests, as you said. You asked why Razah's is so much harder than Zenmai's. So I asked (yes my question was rhetorical, I believe yours was too.) why a Margonite in DoA was so much harder to kill than a Bog Skale outside of ToA. Neither are in a primary area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exoudeous

But capturing an elite skill doesnt force you to to do a bunch of hhihg level quests that take hours each to complete just so you can do another quest to unlock them.

You can buy a gem set you know....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exoudeous

Your examples make no sense. Especially cause people dont complain about those other things. The only problem here is you wont stop complaining cause you can't be "leet" anymore.

I wasn't saying people did. He said Razah was a part of game play. Elite Skills are a part of game play, that doesn't mean they should be handed to you.
I wasn't complaining because I'm not "leet" anymore...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exoudeous

Now, if there was rit hero available in the game besides razah, I would see your point. but right now you are just complaining for selfish reasons, and not objectivly.

My point was not the reward, but the objective. The objective would be to get to the boss and capture an Elite Skill, the reward would be having the Elite Skill. My point was, people are complaining about the objective being too hard, and they should not have to pay the 4 gems to complete the quest. My example with an Elite Skill is that if the objective is to get to RoT, kill the boss, and capture the skill, why should I have to go to RoT? Why can't you put it on Istan? After all, they are part of game play.... Selfish?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

Those who don't get why a Ritualist hero is important clearly didn't spend much time playing one as a character. Olias is not a Ritualist alternative.

Correction: "a Ritualist is important" to you. N/Rt are in fact great Ritualists (Soul Reaping is quite nice). However, you are right. Olias is not equal to a ritualist, but he could be an alternative to one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

No, I got your point. You don't feel that having Razah is necessary.

Correct, he is not necessary. That was not my point. Razah's quest is not a primary (as in, you don't have to complete it to finish the game.)

Kali Magdalene · Mar 29, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

Correction: "a Ritualist is important" to you. N/Rt are in fact great Ritualists (Soul Reaping is quite nice). However, you are right. Olias is not equal to a ritualist, but he could be an alternative to one.

I believe, based on the threads about Razah, that a ritualist hero is important to quite a few people.

And since N/Rt can't benefit from spawning power, it doesn't really make them great ritualists. It makes them okay substitutes, but so do rangers with high expertise.

But it's not important now - Olias or Jin or whoever doesn't need to be a substitute/bargain ritualist because Razah will be available with reasonable effort.

Quote:

Correct, he is not necessary. That was not my point. Razah's quest is not a primary (as in, you don't have to complete it to finish the game.)

Which is irrelevant.

Exoudeous · Mar 29, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

My point was not the reward, but the objective. The objective would be to get to the boss and capture an Elite Skill, the reward would be having the Elite Skill. My point was, people are complaining about the objective being too hard, and they should not have to pay the 4 gems to complete the quest. My example with an Elite Skill is that if the objective is to get to RoT, kill the boss, and capture the skill, why should I have to go to RoT? Why can't you put it on Istan? After all, they are part of game play.... Selfish?!

because you can get to RoT through normal gameplay and dont need a group to even get it. getting to RoT doesnt cost you 100k nor does it require many hours of gameplay to finish quests to get too.

point is some people really want to use a Rit hero, but he is made so hard to get its out of reach of most normal players. Anet made it about way more then just the challange when they made him the only rit hero. Once again, though would not have done this if there was a normal rit hero, even if people complaind

Every other high level challange in the game gives rewards of rare skins, razah was the only exception which is why it will be getting changed. It was an oversight by anet, and should have been made to not have a cost to start with. That is what you continue to refuse to understand.

So you like examples, please give me an example of rewards of elite level content that gives you something that normal players cant get sans the look or said items.

All of your other examples are irrelevent to the topic at hand, and you have yet to make a solid reason as to why he should remain hard to get.

minex · Mar 29, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Magdalene

I believe, based on the threads about Razah, that a ritualist hero is important to quite a few people.

Thats interesting because when it comes to actual application, I cannot find a single group that wants me to add the ritualist hero and I've had Razah for awhile now. When I add him, people tell me to remove him. From personal experience, all people want is an MM, a fire elementalist (god forbid I use any of the other elements), or a monk.

LifeInfusion · Mar 29, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

AWESOME. Thumbs up to the devs!

The Ernada · Mar 29, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

My need to feel special? I said before that I don't care that Anet is making Razah more accessible. I said I don't like the fact that people were complaining about it being too hard, instead of being in game farming the gold.

Why are your posts so against this update then? Why do your posts argue against every person that thought this was a good update? You sure dont sound like you dont care, you're even telling people that they should have been farming the hold instead.

No, it sounds like you have issues against how people are now getting the same thing that you have. I still dont understand how this affects you. You already have Razah. You already completed the challenge and you got your satisfaction from it, so even if the quest itself were easier it doesnt affect you.

minex · Mar 29, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

No, it sounds like you have issues against how people are now getting the same thing that you have.

I guess I don't really understand whats wrong with this line of thinking, even if it were true. *shrug*

Kali Magdalene · Mar 29, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by minex

Thats interesting because when it comes to actual application, I cannot find a single group that wants me to add the ritualist hero and I've had Razah for awhile now. When I add him, people tell me to remove him. From personal experience, all people want is an MM, a fire elementalist (god forbid I use any of the other elements), or a monk.

I think you can separate "whatever cookie cutter team build your pugs want" from "what people are saying they want on the forum" pretty handily.

Are you going to deny that there have been several threads, each filling several pages with posts asking Anet for an easier way to get Razah or a rit hero in general?

Hell Raiser · Mar 29, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exoudeous

because you can get to RoT through normal gameplay and dont need a group to even get it. getting to RoT doesnt cost you 100k nor does it require many hours of gameplay to finish quests to get too.

point is some people really want to use a Rit hero, but he is made so hard to get its out of reach of most normal players. Anet made it about way more then just the challange when they made him the only rit hero. Once again, though would not have done this if there was a normal rit hero, even if people complaind

Every other high level challange in the game gives rewards of rare skins, razah was the only exception which is why it will be getting changed. It was an oversight by anet, and should have been made to not have a cost to start with. That is what you continue to refuse to understand.

So you like examples, please give me an example of rewards of elite level content that gives you something that normal players cant get sans the look or said items.

All of your other examples are irrelevent to the topic at hand, and you have yet to make a solid reason as to why he should remain hard to get.

It's called an analogy. Let me put it in a sentence you can actually understand.... This requires you to go from point A to point B, talk to John Doe. Mr. Smith now says that because it is part of 'this that' that you should have to skip point B (which requires more work) .

Now does that mean that anything that is part of 'this that' should be easy/easier to get?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Magdalene

I think you can separate "whatever cookie cutter team build your pugs want" from "what people are saying they want on the forum" pretty handily.

Are you going to deny that there have been several threads, each filling several pages with posts asking Anet for an easier way to get Razah or a rit hero in general?

He is right, everyone prefers the "holy trinity" as I see it (damage dealer [ele], damage absorber [MM, and actually the minions] and damage mitigater [monk]) and not a ritualist.

People are only complaining about wanting an easier way to get Razah because they want what everyone else gets. So if you are homeless, peering into the window of a restaurant and see someone with a steak, you should get a steak also? (For you, Exoudeous: Jane sees John with This, Jane should get This also?)

The Ernada · Mar 29, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by minex

I guess I don't really understand whats wrong with this line of thinking, even if it were true. *shrug*

Why wouldnt it be wrong? He has no right to complain that others are getting Razah especially since he gets the gems back. Heck, I'm glad that I'm getting the gems back. Basically any extra "effort" made will be refunded. The next people who get Razah will not be making any less of an effort. We should be happy that we're getting something back instead of worrying about how others can get Razah now too.

Geez, there's always a few selfish twits who try to ruin it for everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

So if you are homeless, peering into the window of a restaurant and see someone with a steak, you should get a steak also? (For you, Exoudeous: Jane sees John with This, Jane should get This also?)

There's really nothing to be said after seeing this quote....

Exoudeous · Mar 29, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

It's called an analogy. Let me put it in a sentence you can actually understand.... This requires you to go from point A to point B, talk to John Doe. Mr. Smith now says that because it is part of 'this that' that you should have to skip point B (which requires more work) .

Now does that mean that anything that is part of 'this that' should be easy/easier to get?

oh really smart guy? I know what an analogy is, to bad you still dont get that yours doesn't work in this situation. Don't talk down to me, cause you are the one that has the lack of knowledge here.

YOU are the one not getting how gw works. every ( AND THAT MEANS EVERY SINGLE ONE) rare item has a cheap common equivalent in this game, In fact its the whole point guild wars is based off of, to make a game that you can be on equal footing with some one without havingto spend so much time on the game. Razah does not have a cheap equivalent, instead of making a cheap equivalent, Anet just decided to give access to razah himself. If you think the game should be about hard challanges that not everyone should be able to get access to, then you are playing the wrong game

Thus far you have shown a lack of knowledge of how this game works in any way. and you keep saying you don't care that Anet is doing it. its growing more and more obvious you are just upset that anyone can get him now.

you have very little knowledge of the game to be dictating how much work someone should do to get something. If anet really thought things were fair as is, they wouldn't be changing anything, they would ignore the complainers just like they did for all the people that complain about fissure armor being to much.

ANSWER THIS: dont dodge it this time. name any other elite content in the game that gives you items that can not be recived otherwise in the game through other ways or more comon skins. I'll save you time and give you the answer, there are none except for razah and thats why anet is changing it. dotn give the "oh it was supposed to be a challange " answer again cause you have used it too many times

Hell Raiser · Mar 29, 2007, 05:41 AM // 05:41

So judging how I post means I have very little knowledge of this game, huh? Please tell me why I have a lack of knowledge about this game (please quote me on it).
ArenaNet wouldn't have changed anything unless people had asked. So obviously ArenaNet did think things were fair as is (they just need a little push to see the community didn't think things were fair).

Sorry if I am just tired, but did I mention any Rare Weapons? There is no exact non-elite equivalent to an elite skill. Rare Weapons have exact equivalents except for the skin.

Elite skills are very similar to the Razah situation, no elite skill has a non-elite equivalent (yeah, similar skills but not the same. Olias can be used similarly to Razah, they just wont do the same things as good). Armor does have equivalents, weapons do have equivalents, Elite Skills do not.

Akshara · Mar 29, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

People are only complaining about wanting an easier way to get Razah because they want what everyone else gets.

If one looks back upon this thread, hardly anybody was complaining about it being too hard - most everyone for the change was excited about the news, saying thank yous and adding positive comments. The majority of complaints and negative comments are posted by those who don't like the news.

Gaile posted this thread to share the development and get feedback. It's embarrassing how far the thread has devolved from any meaningful discussion and strayed off-topic. The quest is being changed, and debating with one another over the reasons or merits of it is immaterial, as is flaming or insulting each other over it.

Sure wish a moderator would come in here and clean things up a bit, or at least curb the pedantic mudslinging and condescending insults. I don't see how allowing that is helpful to Anet or the forum.

Exoudeous · Mar 29, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

elite skills are part of the game and arnt even hard to get, they are only elite cause you can use one at a time. not elite signifying they are hard to get. You also do not have to quest for hours or spend 100k to get 1 single elite skill. so hows is this similar to razah? especially becasue i see no one saying elite skills are hard to get.

once again your analogy is horrible and out of place.

Hell Raiser · Mar 29, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

/sigh... Once again you fail to see that it is an example, not the exact same thing. As I said: A to B (B being the hardest part) talk to C. I fail see how it is "horrible and out of place." when the idea remains the same. Are you just not seeing the idea?

Exoudeous · Mar 29, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

how do i fail to see the example, im looking at it and makes no sense. maybe you need to realize just cause it makes sesne in your mind doesnt mean the rest of the world will get it.

elite skills arnt even close to being a good example. and neither is the point A to point c example. because there is no other example in the game like the razah situation, which is why its getting changed. look at teh forum, people do alot more complaining about everything else. IN FACT razah was probably the least concern of the community, but anet is still changing it. how many threads have you seen talking about razah?

if i saw it from your view, would i even be here arguing?